Episode Transcript
<p><!--block-->Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple O' Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we're gonna be talking about really major turning points. Now, today's guest, his focus will be from his personal story in life, which is when you leave the military and you go into that status of veteran. But that kind of turning point isn't unique to just the military. Maybe it's a corporate job you've been at for decades. Maybe it's leaving home to go to college, college to go to next place. Life is a series of different phases where we have these major turning points, turning points where maybe our identity is being changed, our purpose is being changed, all these things that were associated with that job or phase. And so what happens when that foundation, that foundation which was interconnected with our mental and emotional wellbeing, is just put into a situation that is new, and how do we respond? We're here today to have that important conversation because many people find themself lost in these turning points. Here with Garrett Biebs, a speaker, author, and a, you know, podcast guest who served in the military who is here to share about that and talk about not only his personal journey, but the life lessons he's cultivated to help others do this more smoothly, because we see too many people become veterans, go to the next phase of their life, and fall apart f- when the next phase should be this great opportunity to do something new. So what can we do to prevent this? Here to have that conversation, Mr. Biebs, so great to have you here, and could you please tell us just a little bit about yourself? Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, and I appreciate this opportunity. I've listened to a- your show, and I... You have some great conversations, uh, and I think bring some very important topics and ideas and some insight to individuals, and I'm sure it, uh, you know, could be very helpful at, at, as people experience things. You know, there's only so many experiences in part of this human experience. I feel like we're all going through different variations or versions or combinations of very similar things. So I think it's always great to be able to share some stories, and you do a, a great job of that, pulling stories out of individuals. Uh, and you really touched on something that's really passionate to me about and, and why I'm so invested in this work. One of the saddest things that I see, especially with veterans, is individuals that raise their right hand, they sign up, they step forward, they go off to do what they have no idea is going to be yet, but they do it because they want to serve their country. They want to make an impact. They want to give back. They want to do something positive and contribute to something that's greater than themselves, and it saddens me to see so many veterans not experiencing that positive ROI on the investment that they made. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, they take that uniform off for the last time. They don't... They're... Too many of them aren't living into their full potential for joy, for fulfillment, for happiness, for contribution, and that's, uh, yeah, that's a, that's, that's a horrible... For somebody who's, who's stepped forward and invested so much of themselves, I hate to see individuals that aren't, uh, aren't really living up to the full potential. So that's really what's, what I'm passionate about this work, and where it came from is from my own experience. So I served in the Marine Corps almost 17 years, and when I transitioned from the Marine Corps, I unfortunately had an experience similar to many veterans. Uh, you know, we look at the statistics of the veteran population. Some say there's at least twice as many or, or even three times as many veterans that struggle with mental health challenges, substance challenges. Uh, we hear often about the increase, uh, in the, in the suicide rate or the self-inflicted wounds. And I began, as I... You know, quickly into my transition, I began dealing with anxiety, with depression, with lack of meaning and purpose, lack of direction, loss of sense of identity. And fortunately for me, I found a pathway out of that darkness. I, you know, was introduced to some great coaching, some great mentoring, and, uh, found an opportunity, uh- To, uh, gain some clarity and find kind of a pathway out of that, out of that space. And looking back along the way, one of the hardest parts for me was trying to understand, like, what was it that was so disruptive about that transition? You know, it's something that we think about. There's a lot of, there's a lot of thought while we're in the, uh, military about how the grass is gonna be greener, and we think about all the opportunity- Yeah, yeah ... and all the freedom, and the, the ability to, you know, have a, a, a regained sense of agency over the direction of our life. Yet too many individuals, once they take that uniform off, that that's not the reality that we face. So I was always curious about that. Like why, you know, f- first and foremost, why am I struggling? Then, uh, as I started to find some clarity and started to find a path to a better version of my life, I was wondering, what is it about so many veterans? 'Cause I understand in our culture there tends to be this assumption that, oh, if a veteran is struggling with mental health, with PTSD, with addiction, oh, it must stem from something on the battlefield, or maybe an MS- Mm ... military sexual trauma, maybe some training mishap. And while sadly that's true for some veterans, it's not true for most veterans, yet most veterans really struggle. And this isn't just veterans that deployed to combat many times. Those, uh, those often have the highest rates. But there's people that served for four years or six years. Maybe they deployed once or they never deployed, yet they still have the effects of this major disruption of taking that uniform off. So that's something that really fueled my curiosity is, what is going on here? Because I remember one of the hardest parts for me as my world seemed to fall apart and as this void seemed to be, uh, created inside of me, one of the hardest things was really understanding where that pain and that frustration was coming from. I often give this analogy, like if you and I were to get together and we went for a really long run or had a really hard workout and we woke up the next morning and our muscles were sore, well, it would make sense to us. We'd say, "Okay, I know why that's happening, and therefore I have some hope and some clarity on the fact that things are going to get better." Yet one of the hardest things is when you wake up and, you know, your, your, your emotional, uh, muscles, your physical body is sore, yet you have no idea where it came from. And I- Mm-hmm ... and I see a lot of veterans in that experience where something feels off, something feels like it's missing, har- life just gets a little bit harder than it should be, but they're not really sure why. And I think that's what leads a lot of veterans to sadly losing hope, and maybe they think that the, the struggles or the challenges they're facing is just their new reality, so they find ways to cope with it, to deal with it, to avoid, to escape, to numb it. Or sometimes they think like, "Hey, I can't carry this burden any further, and I need to find a way out of it." 100%. You touched upon, you know, I've been on about 80 shows now, and they always ask me, "Mr. Whiskey, what's the number one misconception civilians have about military life, especially the PTSD journey?" And I always point out we're so combat focused, but the truth is only a small percentage of the military sees combat. You look at all the branches, all the different jobs within them, all the different short tours here in America, you know, only a portion see them. And like you said, that's an... It's an additional layer. On top of- Mm-hmm ... people don't realize the military is just another layer and lifestyle of hardship on top of all the normal issues. You know, marital issues, financial issues, and then you have the extra isolation, the extra distance. You know, everything that we go through as human beings, the military members are going through and then some. Right. Right. And one thing you talked about is ROI, and, and I love that point because a lot of people get this misconception. You have the ROI. You've got the disability money. You've got the medical and dental benefits. We get so focused on tangible and finances that we forget, what about the ROI on was I able to get a job? Am I able to pursue my dreams? What about, you know, my mental health? And we think that compensation financially makes up for all of that, and it doesn't. Mm-hmm. And, and that ties directly into, like, so many people have gotten a job in the military that wasn't in line with what they wanted to do afterward, and now they have to start over again, sometimes much later- Right ... in life. And that can be a very big obstacle to look at, saying, "Hey, now I gotta go to college after 10 years of service and, you know, start from scratch?" Or- Right ... "I just served all this time in the military, but my resume is throwawayable because, what? I was a, a sniper scout. What does that translate to?" Nothing, right? Right. And I'm not, I'm not saying any of this to diminish what people in the military do, but I talk about the nicheness of the jobs and what they're transferring to. But when you talk about what job are you getting, what do you wanna do afterward, your identity, the reason it's so deeply tied isn't just because the military is a lifestyle as much as it is a job, but look at who's going into the military. People who are 17, 18 years old, they don't know who they are yet. And then the people who are older, typically they're going in for a restart. They failed college. They failed their career, their business, whatever it is. They don't know who they are. And so then it becomes so ingrained in the military. And what I've talked about, especially with groups like Military Creator Con, is creating someone outside of the military while you're in. Using your free time not just to go into escapism with video games, with sex, with alcohol, with drugs, whatever it is that a lot of military members are doing after work. It's, what other hobbies can I pursue? Right. How can I arrange and manage my time to be a person outside of this? And then you look at so many veterans, I love you said the grass is greener argument. I have so many of my friends who were in, you know, "What are you gonna do when you get out?" "I don't care. It could be taking out the trash, cargo- Right ... grill, as long as it's not this." And in the moment, that seems like a great mentality, and I've been there too. I don't care what I do, as long as I'm not, you know, on this ship with these leaders. Right. I get it. But a lot of those guys got out. They jumped job to job. They had no plan. They were miserable because now they're realizing, like, "Hey, is it better than the military? Yes. But do I love this instability? Do I love that I feel so reduced now to, to this kind of life that I'm restarting over?" I mean, I had friends who got out. They jumped jobs maybe six times within six months. Mm. And then they called me up saying, "You know what, Mr. Whiskey, I think I'm gonna re-enlist, go back in." Yeah. And it's not what they want, truly, but it's what they know they can rely on. Because- Mm ... if I go back in, my identity will be given to me, my purpose. I'll be treated- Right ... with a certain respect based off of rank. And so we see that happen so much. Now, I wanna get more into your personal story with all that said. You talked about, you know, joining and serving, so I gotta ask you the big questions, which is why did you join? And then your time, of course, almost at that 20-year mark, so I'm sure you've heard this many times as well, what happened there? Yeah. So great question. So why did I join? So Even when I was back in high school, I had this, you know, this pull. Like many individuals that join the military, I had this pull to, uh, to join the military service. There was a couple things I noticed. One was that every time I talked to a veteran, and whether they were, you know, at this time World War II veterans, Vietnam veterans, any time I brought up military service I could kind of see their eyes light up a little bit, and they would go into tell these very vivid memories or stories from their time in the service. And something caught my attention about that, the realization that, like, these individuals, men or, or women, they're able to recall this, like, fundamental time in their life with greater detail and, you know, kind of emotional connection than they could something they did last week or last month or last year. Hmm. So I didn't really know what that was or what that represented, but I knew that there was something very profound there, and I knew that I wouldn't know exactly what that meant unless I went and kind of joined for myself and, uh, went through that experience. I also, uh, wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with my life, so I thought, you know, there was some early indicators that I might not ever do much or amount to much. So I thought, I'd, I'd heard this phrase that once a Marine, always a Marine. I was like, "Oh, that's pretty cool." So no matter if I, like, punt the rest of my life and never amount to anything, at least I can hang my hat on the fact that I, you know, served in the Marine Corps and I was a Marine. And then also not really knowing what I wanted to do with my life, I thought, "Well, let me go get some experiences, maybe get some of this, uh, GI Bill benefit- Right so that once I am a little bit more certain." And this ties back to something that you pointed out and something I think about all the time. You know, look at the individuals that join the military. They're usually 17 to 22 years old. Like, what we know now about even your brain development, your prefrontal cortex development, your sense of identity, your whole sense of values and beliefs, you know, the structure with which you base your reality on, that's still being formulated at the time that you're in military service. And this is one of the reasons I think that transition is so profound, because in many ways our sense of self, our sense of values and beliefs, our sense, our understanding of who we are and our place in the world is all being formulated at this time of military service. So there's some basic fundamental needs that we have that we learn to meet through this context of being in the military. And naturally we take it for granted, some of those things for granted, like how profound and, and necessary a sense of connection and community and sense of belonging is, or how important it is to have a positive self-identity. Kind of know who you are, know the value that you have as an individual, and have a sense of meaning and purpose in your life. So it makes sense these are fundamental needs, and this is really what I came to understand as to why that transition from military service can be such a major disruption, and even for some, a, a traumatic experience, because there's these fundamental human needs that we have that... And we lose the way that we've come to meet those fundamental needs. And you p- you pointed out another major trend that we see with, with service members when they transition out, not understanding, you know, if you only have one metric or one goal with which to discern a good opportunity or think about what you want to do with your life, if that only metric is, "Oh, how do I support myself? How do I earn a living? How do I make an income?" Then it makes sense that people just go after, "Hey, where's there a job where I can support myself and my family and get an income?" And then very quickly realize they step into something that provides no sense of meaning and purpose. They feel lost. It affects their identity and everything, and that's where I think it comes crumbling down for a lot of individuals. But it makes sense to me that, you know, at, at that point of transition they don't, they don't prepare us to make sure that we're seeking a path where we meet our needs for connection and community- Right ... and belonging and a sense of meaning and purpose. So they don't, you know, n- that certainly wasn't on my mind as I transitioned out. And not preparing veterans for that, we do the best that we can. It's like, all right, what's one metric that I can use to go, uh, you know, chart the, chart my future? And if it's financially derived, then you're leaving so many other things that are more profound and, and more necessary for experiencing, you know, a joyful and happy and fulfilling and meaningful life. 100%. You know, I feel like the military separation process, um, to say respectfully, they don't really care about you, you know? Um- Right ... they, they'd rather you re-enlist and stay in. And, you know, they have, at least when I, I separated, I won't speak for everyone, but, you know, they got a check sheet that they want you to just fill out and sign, and doesn't really matter what's on it, as long as it gets done, okay, you can go. You know? Right. There's not really a mentorship process where they sit down. You know, you see a career advisor, quote, unquote, who is just some other sailor or soldier who got told they're that job now, right? Usually they're volunteered. Right. And they've got 100 other things to worry about, not, "Hey, are you pursuing a career path post-military that's gonna make you happy?" Mm-hmm. They just wanna hear, "Okay, you've got some kind of plan. Cool." You know? And I, I think that's the thing, like you said, we look at so much. And, and there's this big debate back and forth in the world of is it more important to love your job or to have a job that makes you money, right? There's this huge debate, and, and there is- Mm-hmm an important balance between that. And so I wanna backtrack real quick to, you know, you went in to get that identity, to get that purpose, to serve a life, to be a Marine, and then you ended up staying for a very long time. Got out pretty close to the end there. Was it, you know, a medical situation? Was it burnout? Was it you just wanted to pursue something new? Why not do the full 20? Yeah, great question. So it was something about wanting to pursue something new, and, um, a lot of people are like, "Oh, why didn't you stick around and retire?" Well, I actually did retire, and that's why I got out early. So during that time in the drawdown phase, um, after major combat operations, they were offering early retirements, which they occasionally- Nice do. So my MOS was eligible for it. I was, uh, I don't know if I, like, wished it into existence, but I was waiting, and when that message came down from headquarters- Listen ... Marine Corps that I was eligible, I had my paperwork ready to go that next day to apply for it. Adam Wade. So they did give me an ear- you know, they gave me an early retirement. It's a, you know, it's a significantly reduced pension, but I got out- Mm ... kind of on my own terms at the right time. I was, you know, starting to be burned out from it, um, and the, and the cost and everything that we paid that a lot of people don't think about, and I was kind of ready to do the next thing. Um, so when they offered me that opportunity... I mean, honestly, I loved every moment of, you know, o- o- of the Marine Corps, of the experience. Every duty station I had, I got the opportunity later to earn a commission, and then I got a chance to fly the KC-130 Juliet, which I say is hands down the best job that you can have in the Marine Corps. Um- And then I realized, like, I've loved everything. I've gotten everything that I've wanted up to this point. You know, the Marine Corps is gonna get theirs at some moment, so I was like, "I better get out now before they, uh, before they- Right ... realize how good I've had it and come get theirs." So that's kind of what, you know, that's what led to that. And then I- and, and, and you touched on this a little bit. It's on all the additional costs that individuals face or that c- that price that they pay. I mean, I, what I was facing was I had a four-year-old daughter at the time. My marriage was falling apart. I realized that for two of my daughter's four years, I hadn't been around. So we were at- Mm ... you know, I came back from my last deployment. We were effectively strangers. I mean, she didn't feel comfortable around me. So I was like, "What the, you know, what, what the heck's going on here? I gotta do something different. I need to, I need to be able to put me and whatever's authentic and, uh, you know, and passion-driven for me kind of more front and center," uh, still not knowing exactly what that was. But I, I knew that there was something that, that needed to change Right. And during that time, you mentioned deploying, and I actually read in your bio something that caught my attention. You call it an unexpected paradox where while deployed to Afghanistan, you started writing and teaching about happiness, meaning, and fulfillment. And of course, years later, your life tested that. What about Afghanistan inspired you to write and teach happiness and that kind of stuff? Like, what was going on at that time? Yeah, so a existential crisis, some internal suffering. And as you can appreciate when you're in the military, I mean, they'll take every minute of every day that they can, whether it's for your primary job- Yeah or some studying or some preparation that you have to do. So things were not going very well in my personal life when I went off for this last deployment in 2013, and I had a rare opportunity where I didn't have a whole lot of extra things that I was studying for that were on my mind. It gave me space. It gave me space to reflect and the space to think. And I always say, you know, it's... You're, you, you always work hard while you're deployed, and you work a whole lot, but there's also a whole lot of downtime to reflect and think. I mean, I was a pilot, and a lot of times we're just kind of standing, standing by waiting for a mission or waiting for something to come up. Uh, and then, you know, you do 12 on, 12 off, and during my 12 off, it's like I'm taken away from my house, from my community, from all my normal things. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna go to the gym, go to the chow hall. I still got, you know, nine or 10 hours. I'm gonna get some sleep in there, but that's still a lot of time that it leaves for you to kind of do some reflection. And at this point in my life, I was starting... I, I had just gotten an upgrade to a, you know, to a position on the aircraft, so I wasn't trying to do my, um, my, uh, my career promotion education for my next promotion. I wasn't trying to study and prepare for my next upgrade in the aircraft. So I had a lot of space to fill my mind and my time with other things and, and that space also made me confront the reality that from the outside looking in, I probably had an, you know, an amazing life and everything was going well. I had the wife, the cars, the kid, the, you know, the travel, you know, an ex- pretty exciting existence. But in many ways, I felt dead inside. I mean, I felt like there was... The, the way I often say it is I feel like I was putting 100% of the energy and the effort that I had into doing the things, not just the Marine Corps, but really what society suggests that we should chase- Mm-hmm and what we should- Mm-hmm ... what we should gather or what we should attain in order to be happy and successful. And I, and the way I articulated it is I felt like for that 100% effort, maybe I was getting 10% of the joy and the fulfillment and the happiness that I would have expected from doing all- Right the things that I thought I was supposed to do. So that led me with one question to contemplate was, is this really what life is all about? Is life just supposed to be this miserable experience that we suffer through and die at the end? Or are there just some fundamental truths and beliefs and values or assumptions that I've been making in my life that are just woefully wrong and incorrect? So I was hoping that the answer was the latter and not the former, because then at least then I could do something about it. So with that curiosity, I really began to dive into a lot of, you know, I, I brought a whole, like half my sea bag was full of books, and everybody was laughing at me because everybody else brought a little Kindle that they fit in their pocket. Right. But I brought this big bag of books. I spent a lot of time watching TEDx talks or TED Talks or Google talks and, um, going to the, the chapel for different kinds of services, just trying to see like, all right, what, what are some of these things that I'm missing? And through a lot of that reading and study and reflection, I began to connect the dots between some, you know... There's an interesting thing that happens if you, you know, I think if we read a couple of different books, we'll see a common theme or thread or an idea- Hmm ... that seems to be shared in different ways through different books. But the thing that was unique for my situation was consuming so much information at one time, I feel like I was able to see a lot more common threads and make a lot more connections than I said. I'm not really sure what this is, but I'm starting to pick up something. I'm smarting- starting to have a, a different understanding of both how to live life and my mental health and the internal sense of peace that I have. Like I'm starting to pick up some things here. So I began to journal about it. It's like I want to capture all this stuff so that I can connect these dots and make these associations, um, you know, more, more permanent so I can continue to reflect on them. And then I got the idea, and this was thinking about my daughter at the time. I said, you know, one of the few things that, you know, all parents want to do is help to at least allow their children to have a better go through life than what they experienced. Right. So I thought, you know, there's some profound things that I'm finally learning or, or understanding now in my early 30s. Like let me capture it in some way that maybe I can pass this off to my daughter or future children. So that really took a different tone to my journaling. Now I wasn't just trying to capture shorthand notes so I could, you know, recall something and remind myself, but now I really had to flesh out some of these ideas and help articulate it in a way that somebody who hadn't read the books or been through my life experiences might understand and appreciate it. And then that became a book that I later published called The Spheres Approach to Happiness and Fulfillment, and it's somewhat of a, of a stoic philosophy or stoic way of, of living. It's somewhat of a, uh, it's got some influence from positive psychology. But to me, it was really helpful. I didn't fully grasp everything that I was sharing. I was trying to live into it as best I could, but I knew that there was something very profound there in the way that it helped adjust my mindset, adjust the way that I was approaching life. And then- Just a few years later when I transitioned out of the Marine Corps, I felt like my whole world fell apart. And therefore, even though I'd published that book, there was a long time where I didn't even mention it. I was like, how, how hypocritical is this of me- Mm ... to publish this book on happiness- Right ... and fulfillment. And then later on, as I admit in my recent TEDx talk, that l- not, not far along after that, I was thinking about joining the 22 veterans a day, and I wasn't sure how close I was to crossing that line. I was struggling more with substances and behaviors. So I was like, I don't, you know, okay, maybe everything that I thought I learned, uh, you know, in the past, I, I'm, I'd be afraid for somebody to hear about that book and get excited about it, and then hear about my story that happened later and think like, "Oh, nothing in this book can be that meaningful." But something that I've really come to reflect on recently is the fact that it was exactly those things that I learned and was living into and professing this new understanding is what helped me survive that later chapter in my life. It's not something that's going to prevent the storm or it's going to- Mm you know, i- uh, guarantee that you'll never face strife or challenges or struggles- Mm ... in your life. But for me, what it was is it, it was a compass to help navigate that storm, even when I wasn't sure where I was going or where I, or where exactly I was, it was something that helped me continue to push through and evolve and to learn from that process. Right. And so let's talk a little bit more in detail about that transition. You're getting out. You know, did you have a kind of plan, you know, ahead of time to step into a career or to do a, you know, a purposeful gap year and then surge to go into education? What was the plan looking like? And then can we talk a little bit about how it kind of fell apart? Yeah, certainly. So the, the plan was to get involved in real estate and real estate development, so it's still something I'm, I'm passionate about. And I, without, uh, you know, without, without much grounding in what life was going to be like on the outside, I could envision, you know, going on and having a happy and fulfilling life invested in that. So I got out and I started working for a friend of mine selling some real estate as a broker while I was earning a master's degree in real estate development. And very quickly, I tried to maintain that same operational pace that I had in the Marine Corps, yet- Right ... doing something that I very quickly did, you know, s- did not like. I didn't like this idea of running around and working with so many people and, and the, and the trying... And, and for me, in some, in some regards, I was working 60, 70 hours a week trying to do this real estate brokerage thing, and what I realized later was that was a mechanism of escape for me. Whenever I slowed down or stopped, the discomfort inside and the question, the anxiety and everything inside was too great, so I was pouring myself into something Which, you know, led to the burnout and led to the other challenges. Yeah. And also along this time, I was really going through my recovery journey and learning as I was working through with this mentor and this coach, and learning about positive psychology, trying to fill in some of those gaps in the book that I wrote earlier, and just being more fascinated about this whole human flourishing and human suffering and, uh, and what I can learn about the human experience. I began to connect with some other individuals who had gone through more of a traditional pathway to recovery, and learning about, you know, different treatment modalities or different, uh, you know, different resources in the recovery community. And I began to realize there was a lot of things I was introduced to that seemed to be absent in some of the traditional recovery circles or, uh, recovery pathways. So this inspired this passion in me. So as I'm trying to balance this real estate career and figure out what I want to do with my life, I began to now share some of the things that I was learning that were helping me, and a lot of influence from positive psychology, um, to, to prepare those or deliver those to the recovery community. And then that's, that's when I felt most alive, and that's when I felt most excited. So within short order, I realized, man, you invested a lot of time and a lot of money getting ready for this real estate career. But, uh, but for me, it was more important to follow and to do something that I was passionate about, and that's when I quickly realized... And I, I, I share this, say, you know, even when I first got out of the Marine Corps, I was making, you know, 60, 70% of what I was making while I was in the Marine Corps. But having that freedom, having that ability to go do what I want and spend late nights not doing something I had to for work or even for a real estate- Right client, but spending those nights pouring into and feeling creative and feeling inspired, pouring it into something that I enjoyed, um, that was, uh, that, that was an important kind of, uh, realization for me is, is how vital it is to make sure that we're doing things that are meaningful in our life, that we feel like we have this contribution to give. And I often say, like, I feel like I was put here for a purpose. I think everybody's put here for a purpose. I wasn't really sure what it was. But one of the things that helped me was following those times where I felt that joy, where I could get into flow, where I felt that excitement, that creative inspiration. For me, following that is what has kind of led me on my path to where I think I'm supposed to be and doing the things that I, I believe I'm supposed to invest in. For sure. You know, you talked about two things I want to touch upon, the first being that trap of, you know, external productiveness without the internal change in process. And, you know- Mm-hmm ... a lot of us get trapped in that, especially when it comes to workaholics. Whether it's, you know, you're a high-functioning CEO or maybe you're doing all these hours. And I, I liken it almost to a treadmill, you know? You- Right ... you're moving, you're running, you're getting the activity done, but you're not going anywhere. You know, it... We fall into this trap of it looks productive, therefore it is productive, and that's not the case because we know the- Right ... internal is so important. And then you talk about- A hard choice we have to make sometimes, and it can be, uh, an anchor and a trap for a lot of people, is not wanting to throw away what we've invested into. Mm. And this isn't just for a career, for education. This is actually for relationships too. How many of us have said, "I don't wanna start over again"? I spent years, thousands of dollars, dates, trips, road trips, meeting family- Right ... with this person. So even if it's a toxic relationship, even if it's domestic violence, sexual violence, even if something bad, I don't wanna restart, reinvest. I already invested. And so we see that in relationships, we see it in family. We've seen it, of course, in careers and education. I, I just spent all those years in college, like you said, to do one thing. Now I'm gonna do another thing? And so I think, you know, happiness and purpose and fulfillment require sacrifices. And hopefully, you know, conversations like this when we talk about trying to spread as much prevention and awareness as we can will minimize the amount of investment you have to discard, uh, you know, in order to pursue something greater. But we also know that while it seems like such a big sacrifice, the trade-off is unbelievable and, and you have lived it and know, like, that feeling of happiness and freedom and fulfillment is so much greater than the heartache of that sacrifice. You know, you just have to step into it. And so you talked about this timeline. I just want a little clarity on that. Was this months or years of struggling w- uh, b- with the real estate and the transition out of the military, then going into helping and serving others? What was the timeline like? Yeah, I mean, and, and I think it's something that's still evolving. Uh, so the- Mm ... my time I'd spent maybe a year and a half really buckled down in, in real estate, and then I finished my graduate degree and then looked for some career opportunities there. I guess fortunately for me, there wasn't a whole lot to do in Eastern North Carolina from a real estate developer's perspective, uh, for at least for somebody starting out in the field. Um, so there was a l- I know there's a lot of, a lot of second-guessing, a lot of like, "What the heck am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?" Right. Uh, so a lot of difficult conversations, uh, you know, with myself and reflections with myself, and the... a lot of temptation to avoid. So it can be very tempting to just go find something else. I mean, some... I've been a entrepreneur now for a number of years and, and run my own business, and there's been a lot of nights where I'm like, "Man, a W-2 would be pretty ri- nice right now. Like, somebody else just telling me what I need to do so I can get it done and go home and get on with my life would be pretty r- nice right now." But back to that point about, you know, filling, filling that cup within you, finding that joy, finding that peace, what I very quickly, the conclusion I very quickly come to is there's not an amount of money that I can imagine that I'd be willing to sacrifice, you know, that joy. And for some people, and this... I, I've done some coaching with individuals that come to me like, "Hey, should I do this, uh, opportunity? There's this great thing coming up." And one way that I ask them to reflect on it is, how much of that money are you gonna have to spend in new travel, fancy dinners, new cars, new clothes, uh, trying to make up for that void that it's creating inside of you to pour into or to pursue something that, that's not perfectly aligned with, uh, what's most meaningful to you? Because if you can kind of balance out the, uh, you know, the pros and cons by reflecting on it in that way, I mean, one of the, one of, one opportunity that was available to me was to go be an airline pilot when I got out of the Marine Corps. But I quickly realized, like, no, I, I wanna own my time. I'm, I'm tired of somebody else telling me where I've gotta be- Yeah and what I've gotta do and when I'm gonna be home for Christmas and when I'm not, and when I gotta miss somebody's birthday party. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm tired of that. And that, that to me, at least from my perspective, was not what a successful or joyful life would look like for me. So, uh, I think reflecting back on that, like, all right, how much, how much stuff am I gonna go have to consume and buy, and experiences am I gonna have to do to try to make up for all of these missed opportunities or missed experiences? Yeah. Uh, so I think, you know, for a lot of people, if you're reflecting on a career change or whether or not you wanna stay in your own career, it's like, how, how happy are you at the end of the day? How satisfied do you feel? If you did this for the next 10 years, are you gonna look back on it and think that was a great investment of 10 years? And if not, like, that's a pretty strong indicator. Yeah, it's gonna suck. Yeah, there's gonna be some transition there. There's gonna be some fear. There's gonna be some unknown. But, like, hey, how, how long do you want to avoid this, this, uh, this signal to you that maybe it's time to change? And that can be with professions. It can be with relationships like you touched on. Yeah. Um, I mean, we're only here for so many years. We're only here to have this experience. I, I think that we should pursue the things that are, you know, most meaningful to us. Not to say that we try to avoid all pain and suffering. That's also not a good thing. But I think that if we can choose the difficulty and the pain and the suffering that we endure, then, uh, then that can lead us to the best positive outcomes in the future. For sure. So I, I think that's a great, you know, main takeaway message right there. But I, I do wanna get into just with the podcast guesting, with the big talk on stage, with the book. You've done a lot already. You're in the midst of still, like you said, it's still evolving, figuring it out. So what is the future looking like for you? Yeah, that's a great question. So I'm just gonna continue... My, really my passion is to serve veterans. So back to when I started working and creating some curriculum and doing some coaching in the recovery world, I did that for a little while and, and then started to get a little burned out. I was like, "Hey, this, this... At least the financial ROI is not what I would have expected it to be." And then I had to face this, like the elephant in the room was like, hey Garrett, you're doing all this work with a lot of civilians, but really the audience that you're most connected to, and the one that I'm most passionate about, is the veteran population. So then I began to kind of change that message and focus on the same, you know, similar things, wellness, wellbeing, resilience, um, pursuing a recovery journey, flourishing in your recovery, not merely just trying to set down some substance or behavior. Um, but now I'm trying to work with a... I'm working more and more with the veteran population. So right now I'm working with a lot of clinicians, so mental health providers that work with veterans, to help them better understand that veteran experience, and also to better leverage some of the opportunities that are unique to the veteran population. A lot of those same traits and, uh, and characteristics and, and parts of our experience, they can become major barriers in somebody's recovery journey. For example, our attention to detail. I always joke that, you know, if I... If you sit down with a non-veteran and you ask them to make a list of their personal defects or their challenges or their weaknesses, like, they might fill up a page, but if you ask a veteran, he's going to come up with half a notebook full of things because of that attention to detail. So it can cut... You know, it c- it can be of service to us in one, in one regard or one context- Mm-hmm ... but some of those same things, um, can be, uh, you know, that double-edged sword. But there's also an opportunity there. So if we can shift that perspective, shift that mindset to, you know, what are the strengths that you have? What are some wins that you've had in the past? What are some successes, and what can you learn from those successes to help you create, you know, either overcome future obstacles or challenges or create future successes? There's a tremendous opportunity there to leverage. So that's a lot of the work that I'm doing now, and I'm also starting to create some programming for justice-involved veterans, so any veteran who's unfortunately, through their substance use or behavior, has been led into the criminal justice system, and developing some programming there to, to better support the veteran population. Um, for when I first did the TEDx talk, my, my message was the unspoken trauma that all veterans face, and really what I'm talking about is that transition from military service. Those fundamental human needs that we have for connection, for authenticity, positive identity, and a sense of meaning, and how merely losing the way that you've met those needs in and of itself can be a traumatic experience. So first, my message really was just to bring some clarity to that, to help other veterans or s- transitioning service members. I at least wanted to plant a seed that if they did enter into that darkness, if they did feel that void that I felt, that they would at least have some understanding on where it came from, so maybe they can find a path or find some hope to, uh, to getting out of it. But now really what I'm, what, what's become more apparent to me is this isn't just something to understand. Understanding's very helpful, and that can help a lot of veterans. Uh, I was doing a presentation and there was a Vietnam veteran in the room, and he said, "Garrett, I've been struggling with something internally for the last decades, and I had no idea- Yeah what it was until you helped to explain it in that way." So, you know, this, this isn't just something for GWOT or post-9/11 veterans, it's something for, for everybody. What the message and what I'm really, uh, leaning into now is not seeing this as something to understand, but as an opportunity that allows us to redefine what our life looks like, who we are as an individual and what our life looks like. I understand that trauma is often defined through characteristics of a tra- traumatic event or experience, and when they look at the characteristics of a tr- of a traumatic experience, they say that it's, one, it's individually defined. There's some previous assumption that has changed. There's some values or beliefs that have changed, or it's changed your perspective of yourself or your place in the world. So certainly a transition when you're taken away from the environment, from the- Right ... sense of connection, when you see yourself in a certain light and now you don't know exactly who you are or what your value is as an individual. But the beautiful thing is that's not something to repair. That's an opportunity. So it's a, you know, you were just afforded a chance to create and become the person that you want to be, to go back and, and start to question, like, okay, what are my values? What are my beliefs? What, what is my value as an individual? What brings me joy in my life? And that's a, that's a major obstacle for a lot of transitioning veterans who are thinking about grass is greener on the other side. When I was in the military, I had this long list of things that I said I would be doing if I wasn't in the military, but the minute I got that DD214 and I took that uniform off for the last time, there was also this tremendous sense of overwhelm. It's like, oh no, there isn't a monitor that's going to call me and tell me what I'm going to do for the next three years of my life. Like, now I got to figure that out. And, uh, and it's not just choosing between three options. I've got endless options. Do I want to, you know, start a business? Do I want to go back to school? Do I want to be a, be a chef? Do I want to be a school teacher? Do I want to, you know, run a landscaping... Like, there's endless opportunities- Mm-hmm of things that are available to us. And with that, I, I understand comes a tremendous sense of overwhelm. Um, overwhelm to me, it's not having a lot of things that you got to do. It's having a lot of things that you have to do or a lot of options, the choices to make, and not knowing where that first step or that first, uh, that first direction should be. 100%. I think that's the thing. You know, it's how we frame it. I always say that we can't change the experiences we've gone through, especially the awful ones, but we can try to cultivate as many life lessons and opportunities and leverage them to the best of our ability. So I appreciate you sharing that message and for guesting on the show today. And, you know, I'll keep my eye out if you're gonna write another book or give another talk, you know, I'll be- I'm working on one. Yeah. We'll see. You know, figures. But, um, I hope that this continues to grow into something beautiful and that you make a huge impact. You know, my heart also goes out to the veteran community where a lot of us have been struggling, especially like you mentioned, I've interviewed Vietnam veterans who pushed stuff down for decades, as you mentioned, and it does come out at some point. And that's the thing, a lot of us are running or escaping, and we're leaving remnants of stuff that's gonna come back up later in life at one point or another. And we talked earlier about why throw away... You don't wanna throw away an investment. Sometimes you have to. But in this case especially, why leave something that could tear down everything you've been building when you can face it now, look at it in that new perspective and understanding and opportunity and, and gratitude, and create that better path without something that's gonna pop up out of nowhere one day? Because we know that's the truth. We've all tried it. We've seen it. And that's why there's a lot of alcoholism, a lot of suicidal ideation, a lot of depression, anxiety amongst the military population and, and just the civilian population in general, because we have so many people running, escaping, and we have so many options to escape to nowadays- Right between social media, video games, pornography, more than ever before. But we need to stay grounded in reality and face it head on. So thank you for- Yeah ... sharing everything that you did today to help us to have this conversation of prevention awareness, and thank you for your time today. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you so much.</p>
